The Chinese Wine Industry

In this podcast episode we talk about the Chinese wine industry. The expert interviewed for this episode is Emilie Steckenborn. Emilie Steckenborn has lived in Shanghai, China for over seven years and is currently the Head of Education for Asia & MEIA at Treasury Wine Estates.

Her passion for wine, food, beer and cocktails are brought to life through Bottled in China podcast and blog.

Podcast Transcript: The Chinese Wine Industry

Sabrina Weithmann: Emily, I’m very happy that you’re in the podcast today.

Emilie Steckeborn: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Sabrina: I got to know you through your Instagram account because I found your podcast there. But maybe let’s start at the beginning. Why are you in China and what are you doing there?

Emilie: Yeah, you know, I’m actually been in China for about close to eight years and let me tell you, like most people in China I did not start off with a plan to be here for eight years. It was supposed to be two years. And now it is starting to be eight years. And so it’s quite exciting and a lot of changes in the last eight years. But I was first, out in China, for a company who brought me out here. And then that kind of opened my eyes to what an incredible place it was, the opportunities and just how fast China was evolving. And I want it to be part of that. So here I am still today, but it’s been a really wonderful and eye opening journey.

Sabrina: Have you always been in the wine industry or did you start with something different?

Emilie: No, actually I think for a lot of people, whenever I interview them about their wine journey, a lot of people start in banking and then go into wine. I went straight to wine. I didn’t need any banking need to tell me that I needed to go straight into wine. So my background has been wine and think, I hope at least it will continue to be so for a long time.

Sabrina: Okay. Is that because wines are good investment option?

Emilie: I think, the reason is, is obviously, you know, wine is very much art. It’s a little bit of everything, right? You can look at it as an investment. You can look at it as art, as agriculture, as sales, as marketing. It’s just, it touches every single facet of any industry in a sense. Especially for myself, I feel that it was just starting with opening a bottle of wine, it opened my eyes to how interesting wine was. And then slowly as I learned more, the more I realized there’s so much to learn. Anything, anybody that loves wine, will know. Once you taste Italy, you’ve got France and after France it just continues and continues and never stops.

Sabrina: At what point comes Germany?

Emilie: You know, Germany was my first. My Dad is German by origin and every Christmas, every holiday we had a German wine and Germany is still today one of my favorite spots for wine. I was just in Mosel in October of last year and let me tell you, it is unbelievable. You guys have the best wine for sure.

Sabrina: I’m very sure that my listeners will love this sentence.

Emilie: Oh No. True. Unbelievable wines, unbelievable people who have so much passion and the quality of German wines, they’re absolutely stunning wines that are age worthy and, and not enough people age, Riesling, so you know, time to start aging those Rieslings.

Sabrina: How did you actually start your podcast? Your podcast is called „bottled in China“ and it’s about the food and beverage industry in China. Um, but how did you decide, or why did you decide to actually start with it? And where are you heading with it?

Emilie: Right. So actually, you know, I think it started off at the end of 2016 and it first started off because, you know, around 2010, a lot of stories started to emerge about China and how food was horrible. Um, you would get sick if you ate at Chinese restaurants. And, and honestly, the first concern I had when I moved to China is what will I eat? Which, you know, is, is there so much great food out here. Right? And there’s really, uh, you know, especially now I would say China, Hong Kong, Asia is booming with incredible restaurants and booming with people who have so much passion for food. And so I wanted to share people’s stories of what’s actually going on in China and how vibrant China is in the F&B scene. And so in 2016, my partner has his own podcast called „China Startup Pulse”, which you may have a large following. And then we decided, hey, I think it’s time to do it about what’s really going on in China and, and share with people the reality that China’s not what a lot of people perceive it to be, especially in the F&B space. And I’m sure for a lot of your listeners, they think of China, especially when it comes to food. And I’m pretty sure their first thought or, you know, is it dangerous? Is it good? And let me tell you, it’s, you’re saying it’s not like what it was 10 years ago. It’s not at all what it was 20 years ago. It’s really an exciting time to be in the F and B scene here in China.

Sabrina: That’s also something I really love about your podcast because when listening you just realize, yeah, the reality is quite different. In Germany, we have those two groups, the ones that haven’t been to China and they just think Chinese food is awful because there are many Chinese restaurants in Germany, that don’t cook Chinese food, they just cook something they think that Germans like, uh, but still somehow tastes Chinese. So it’s really weird. And then there are those who are really have been to China for a long time and they just love everything about food. So I think your, your podcast gives a real good impression on what wine and food cultures is really about.

Emilie: Oh, back home. You see the Chinese restaurants and it’s actually mostly south China food, right? Guangdong and Hong Kong food. You come out to Shanghai, Beijing, you go to Chengdu. Do you don’t ever see that back in, you know, I’m originally from Canada. You don’t see that in Canada. You definitely don’t see it in Germany. It’s starting, but it’s, it’s not what people expect Chinese food to even taste like. So there is a whole other world out there that just isn’t yet in the west in terms of the real cooking.

Sabrina: So why we are exploring Chinese food. I think Chinese are now also exploring wine or what’s the current status of that? Because I remember that years back it’s been really, really difficult to find good wines in China and once you found them, they were super expensive.

Emilie: Oh, for sure. Yeah. You know, there’s a couple of things. You know, China obviously moves fast and credit to that I would say right now is ecommerce and online. So I would say about five, 10 years ago when I actually started to come to China, you’re completely correct. I remember the first bottle of wine I bought once again was a German wine just because I love to drink that. But in China it was a German wine and I think I paid maybe 380 RMB and that was at a grocery store. That’s about, uh, you know, I would say probably 38 euros, right? And that is basic entry German wine at a grocery store, 38 €. Back then. When you think about that in Germany, if you went to a supermarket, you wouldn’t find 38 € for the most basic, basic German wine. Right?

So imagine what you had to pay one of it’s because the taxes were quite high, right? You automatically have, you know, almost 50% tax. But also what happened is, is I would say there was a lot of people trying to figure out the market and the knowledge wasn’t there. So in the wine industry, especially before you had a lot of people that didn’t know wine and they were just ready to pay money because they didn’t know wine. So if you put a price of 380 it sounded like it was a better quality than a 100 RMB wine. So the price offered in introduction to quality, right? Or perception to quality. So that’s one. Now, you know, people are becoming more educated, but most importantly online. Online is so transparent. If I took a picture of that wine, I can figure out the price back in Germany and I would say, wow, in Germany only worth 12 €. Why am I paying 38? That sounds like a rip off, right?

So people obviously because of that, they can’t cheat the consumer as much. And so the price has to go down naturally to be able to be competitive in the market. So that’s kind of an interesting balance of what’s going on. And people realize they can’t continue putting these big margins in restaurants or in supermarket because people now can find out the real price. So people are demanding better value for money. And before you know, it was mostly just French Bordeaux and now you see Australia is booming, Chile with the wine trade is the wine tariff that is excluded is booming. New Zealand is doing well. France is still 40% market share, but, but you know what? It’s a very fragmented market share. It’s not like a very strong, a couple key independent producers. This is a very fragmented market.

And you know, once again, especially in the podcast, we talk a lot about Shanghai. Shanghai’s, a very evolved wine cultural region for China standards, but you get out of Shanghai and it really isn’t a very developed market. So there’s a lot of grey, we call it grey space, which is OEM wines. You know Germany has some producers as well, but mostly French wines that are labeled and made specifically for China where you can’t find the price online because there’s no price online for this brand. And that’s the grey market in a sense. It is the OEM, which is kind of made on demand from big producers and sold locally in tier cities.

Sabrina: Is that done the cheap version of what they are producing for Europe? Just because there is no knowledge and then they can sell basically anything or do they still try to get out quality wines but still label them differently just to avoid that there is a comparison possible?

Emilie: I think most of them, obviously go into the cheap section, if you do OEM, 99% of the time, it’s all about price, right? You’re trying to compete in the price segment because you don’t have a brand. So you can’t compete on brand. There’s no brand. So it is mostly price and you know, I wouldn’t say it’s about, you know, fooling the consumer. I think it’s just more, there’s a demand to drink wine that’s cheap, that’s from a Bordeaux, that’s an elegant label and that’s it done. You know, it kind of just fills the demand for a specific category. But as we see the market evolve, we see that, OEM is much harder to make than it was five, 10, 15 years ago. 15 years ago, it didn’t matter what brand you had. If it came from Bordeaux, you’d probably would be able to sell it. Today it’s much more competitive. Um, you know, everybody wants to come to China, so you have to be a lot more strategic on how you enter the market. That’s very, very, very important.

Sabrina: Okay, that’s good to see a development there. What about Chinese brands? The only brand I can think of right now, is Great Wall.

Emilie: There is an evolution there. Okay. That’s a very interesting topic as well. And I think that um, I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that there is huge growth in that category. Chengyu like you said, really is a still a very big producer in some other ones are really not that bad given the price. But yes, you know regions develop. Wait, so I keep on forgetting what year exactly were you in China?

Sabrina: I’ve been there every now and then. The first time I’ve been there was in 2008, so 11 years ago and from then on, I keep coming and going.

Emilie: So in 2008 I would say a lot of the region, like local produced wine is from Shandong in Yantai, which is kind of north China, right? That that would be one of the larger volumes. And that area, I know it was really the pioneer, but let me tell you qualitywise it’s really rainy, quality is not that good. And you know, as any country people start to evolve and find better regions right Xinjiang is doing well, Yunnan has a huge future and I think now there’s a lot more people that have studied in Bordeaux, have studied in Australia, studied around the world and are coming back to China and saying I’m going to do a great wine based on my experience overseas.

Before it was a lot of consultants from Bordeaux that came to China. But you know, the problem is it’s a completely different climate, right? So yes you are a consultant famous out in Bordeaux but that area is dry and it’s basically a semi desert. I mean it’s a very different wine and completely different regions, right? So now we see a lot more people coming back home with real experience, not just money, real experience who are making quality driven wine, right. Not to only sell to government because of the relationships, they’re making wine to try to compete on the global scale in terms of quality and be able to sell it locally to wine lovers. And so the market’s very different, whereas a lot of Chinese local wine, if you were making a premium, it was really to sell to government, originally that is.

Sabrina: The big names in the wine market. Are there some that we also find abroad already or most still really for the local market. And they’re trying to explore different markets, but they’re not quite there yet.

So I would have to say at this exact point that yeah, they’re not really very yet on the global scale. Um, and there’s a couple of wineries. So for example, I know that just recently, uh, Kanaan winery, which is from Ningxia made by Crazy Fang, they’ve just signed a deal and started off with Liberty Wines in the UK. Right. And then I think she’s also available now with Woolworth’s in Australia. It’s starting, it’s definitely starting. And there’s a couple other producers that are making your way in a niche way, but it’s not at the rate, you know, that it’s everywhere right now. And I think it’s because I think also people abroad are not open yet, right. To the idea that Chinese wines are, are at the quality. It really is. You know, people don’t really believe it until they taste it. But I would also say that the price of Chinese wines are so incredibly expensive. You know, you think it’s made in China, so therefore it’s cheaper. It really isn’t. Right. And so the price point, people look at that and say, well, if I’m paying about 500 RMB to 700 RMB, a bottle, which is quite typical, which is 50-70 €. Can I buy a wine from Bordeaux? Yep. Can I buy a wine from Alsace or a wine from Germany at that price point? You could. It doesn’t have a name. I would say at this exact moment, it doesn’t have enough, you know, competitive strength to really play on a huge international market. But also are people open to the idea? Not just yet, I believe.

Sabrina: So who actually drinks wines and China? Is it more about being rich and wine is a luxury? I mean if you say like general bottle people spend 500 RMB or even more, it seems like a luxury good, but um, is it maybe also about generations? That younger people drink more wine or a more open for it or how would you generalize that?

Emilie: Yeah, I mean there’s a lot of different categories. I think the way to look at China in the wine market is not to locate it as one big piece. You know, the consumption patterns and price points and even region of origin. If you look at what, what are people drinking in south China versus Shanghai versus north China versus Chengdu, what are their preferences? It’s actually very divided. I know you’ve seen these bigger numbers, but at the same time, you know, the category under 100 RMB is doing very well as well. Right? It’s a big category. So there’s lots of different categories. But I would say you obviously see drinkers, I would say between the age of slightly above around 28 to 38 around our kind of in key categories. But you see it at every level. They just drink differently, right? The older, you know, the older generation I think especially, you know, I’m talking about much older, they, they drink wine really based on health, right? And so you would sell them a product differently than you would sell somebody who’s 28, somebody who just started drinking is mostly looking at price or they’re looking at packaging and they get influenced very easily by KOL or you know, packaging. And then you have, well they have gone overseas, right? They are a lot more um, experimental. People that have gone overseas typically will then be open to trying wines that are a little bit higher for quality. Um, they are a little bit more educated or you have people that are, you know, drinking for business. People that drink for business are very brand driven, right? Because they’re just showing face right there buying this, this wine specifically for business. Right? So they’re really much more brand driven. And so there is lots of different categories. I would say the biggest one right now is brand driven because that’s always going to be key when people that are, are exploring, those are kind of the trend-setter. You see them in a newer, in cities like Shanghai and Beijing, these are people that are now drinking natural wines or wines from Burgundy. And then the people who are, have lots of money, they’re drinking the very expensive brands, right? The DRC, Penfolds or Grange. So you have different categories, but there’s basically in China it really is divided within various regions. Right. And so it’s very hard to say, you know, one region is so specific to another.

Sabrina. Okay. I mean also just a thing about status. That’s what I realized recently when I watched a Chinese soap opera, I I had the feeling that most of those different episodes, they were all at some point having young people like you said, between 28 and 38, and they were holding glasses of wine and like they were actually drinking so much wine, just from the amount of scenes where you could watch them drinking wine that I really had to impression, okay, it’s simply something about statutes right now. So if you really want to show off or be someone, you would drink wine instead of other things.

Emilie: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think a lot of it also, you know, just remembering that the KOL factors, so kind of Kol is the key opinion leader hired celebrities to put your wine glass there and your wine bottle and they get paid for kind of promotion. Right. Just remembering that, you know, that’s the audience we want. The viewers of that TV show which are within that category, which are looking, looking for that lifestyle. Right. Those are the drinker that we want. I’m sure that there is, you know, I’d be surprised, or I wouldn’t be surprised if I looked at a TV show and said, oh yeah, there’s probably some brand promotion or cooperation going on here. Of course, that would be the perfect target audience.

Sabrina: Yeah, of course. Okay. apart from status and KOL. What do Chinese, or especially the younger generation like being between 28 or 38, what do they actually prefer if they don’t follow influential leaders or some, some, yeah, some marketing things like that. Um, do they rather prefer dry wines or sweet wines or do they prefer some regions or is that also just a really different across the country?

Emilie: There’s a really big misconception in China about sweet wines. I know that a lot of people somehow feel that sweet wines is the way to go in China. And I think a lot of people have invested heavily in sweet wines. But actually sweet wines don’t sell as much as people think they do. And people do prefer dry line. They do prefer red wine and they do prefer wines that are not chilled down, right? Because in, in the culture here, you don’t drink cold ice drinks. That’s getting started. But at the current moment for wine, people think it should be red. So red wine is much more preferred and dry wine is preferred. Now having said that, I do have to say a really great producer here in China. You know, doctor Loosen for example who’s in Germany. Is, you know, off dry in a sense has some sweetness. And that one I would say sells really well. And I’ve never met one customer in China that doesn’t love this wine. So sweetness is always welcomed in wine if it’s handled well, right? If it’s not, hugely sticky in a sense. So even i red wines, in Australian red wines, you’re always going to find just a touch of residual sugar to balance out that body and balance out the tenant. On the other hand when it comes to the Chinese market, when it, especially when it comes to extremely sweet wines, it’s not to say that you know, an ice wine from Germany or a TBA or Auslese, Spätlese, these can’t work in China. That’s not true. All it means is that’s going to be a very specific customer that knows about the wine, that knows about production, right? It’s still possible to break through. It means it’s great for wine by the bottle on a restaurant list if there’s a good promotion attached to it. But I have heard that the, the „GGs“ that are produced from Germany, so the dry versions of Riesling is doing really is growing in category as opposed to the sweet versions. So there is potential here, but most people prefer red wine. They prefer dry wine and they prefer, you know, a little bit of everything. Powerful yet nice fruit. And I would say that’s quite a contrast to a market like Korea, which actually doesn’t like tannin at all because they don’t really drink it. Tannin is not something that they’re quite used to and they prefer sweet white wine. So, you know, two countries that are so close together, right? Korea versus China, completely different drinking habits. And yet sometimes people have a general idea that all sweet wine breaks in China where that’s actually not the case in terms of selling.

Sabrina: Okay. Where do you think, does this come from? Uh, that those countries, although they’re so close together prefer different wines. Do you think this is also connected to food and the type of food that they eat and that they just have a different taste?

Emilie: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don’t know the exact reason, I can’t pinpoint, but I know one of the main reasons I was given is in China, people drink a lot of tea, right? And he has a lot of tannin, especially when you think of Pu’er cha or something that is quite bitter and in Korea, they drink barley tea and barley tea has no tannin. So people think that Tannin in Korea is too much. It’s too, it’s too powerful for that. Right. So in China, bitter is, is a natural, you know, you think of all the herbals, you know herbal medicine, right? You think of all the different foods that use kind of Tannin in the cooking or tea leaves in a cooking. So tannin is a natural kind of flavor that people have adapted to. Whereas an area like Korea, it’s not something that they, it’s in their food, it’s in their, their culture. So they actually started off drinking with Moscato as a, as a first kind of wine that they start drinking. And in China, the first wine that people drink red wine as opposed to going to anything sweet.


Sabrina: What about having wine with food? Are there some Chinese dishes that go very well with a certain type of wine. Thinking of how I usually have dinner in China, it would always be with beer.

Emilie: That’s a good choice. For myself and I’m not saying this because your listeners are based in Germany, but I truly feel every time I do a presentation, I say guys, Riesling is the king of food. You know, you pair that with anything in China which is oily or salty or spicy or that’s deep fried or that’s fresh vegetable. And you know, 90% of the time a Riesling is going to be amazing with a touch of sweetness is going to be outstanding with any dish. Now having said that, you know, I, I truly do believe is that when it comes to red wine and Chinese food, it is absolutely so difficult to tell you one wine that pairs with everything. And you know, as you know in China we eat and we don’t have a specific dish for ourselves, right? You don’t have one dish like a steak. You have, you share your plates and it could be, you know, four or five people might have seven or eight different plates of completely different dishes. And so food and wine in China, I would have to say is, is kind of doesn’t really work because it just doesn’t make sense. Right? I mean, you had eight dishes. What, you know, yeah, maybe a white wine or that doesn’t have much flavor can go with it or you can, you can go from Riesling or you can go for a Pinot or can go for like Merlot. But to be very honest, I think there’s obviously some huge pairings that are beautiful with clients. And then on the other hand, it’s hard to recommend one wine that goes with food. But Riesling is super versatile. Merlot with Shanghai hongshao rou, you know, that kind of a meat. I’m drooling just saying it. And then you can think of food with Riesling or Yunnan food with a champagne which has a more of that spice. Or you can even think about, you know, Chardonay with dim sum is fine or Riesling with dim sum. There’s so many different options and you can play around with that, but it is hard to build a menu when you have eight different completely different dishes that you are eating all at the same time. You know, it doesn’t come one by one all at the same time and they’re so different.

Sabrina: I was really curious about your answer to this question because I always think it’s so hard already just to combine the different dishes in a way that they still match each other. You know, you have some salty, some spicy, some sweet on the table, but it still has to match together somehow. So even combining this with wine, where here in Europe, most countries where you drink lots of wine, it’s so difficult already to choose the right wine with just one dish.

Emilie: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, it is safe to just pick two bottles, you know, get a white, get a red and then just kind of go with the flow. What do you want to drink and eat? You just choose whatever. And I think everyone’s happy. But yeah, I think, I think that there’s a lot of ‚em say around Chinese food and wine, but I’ll be honest, I think it’s kind of just a myth because there is no wine that you can just say is perfect with Chinese food. I mean, everything can be perfect with Chinese food. There’s so many variabilities.

Sabrina: But then the choosing a Riesling and China would already be a pretty good solution for this.

Emilie: Great. Well said. Well said. Final conclusion is Riesling goes well with most Chinese food, especially if you’re thinking of spicy and salty and deep fried or fresh or light meats, I would say, you know, you can’t go wrong with a Riesling or champagne, so you’re good.

Sabrina: I have one more question about stereotypes. Um, because I guess if you’re in another country, you have all the stereotypes and thinking about a country. So I would imagine that countries like Italy and France match much better the stereotypes that you have for those countries with your experience of wine. Like you have a certain mindset when you think about France or Italy for instance. Um, but if you think about Germany with a Chinese mindset, I think you wouldn’t considered food or wine to be something very specific because you think about beer. Does this somehow affect wine sales in China?

Emilie: No, that’s a good point. I don’t think food will directly affect. Um, but it does reflect in the idea that there’s less German restaurants in China. Right? Which means that because there’s less German restaurants and if they are German restaurants, they’re usually more beers and so they don’t have as much share on the wine list. Right. So, you know, when you go to a French restaurant, you’ll have a full, you know, four or five pages of French wine or Italian restaurant, you have four or five pages of italian wine. And then all of a sudden you go to a German kind of restaurant out here and it’s mostly beer and they maybe have French wine on the menu. You know what I mean? So it’s not, I think that there is a little bit of lack of representation just based that there’s not a lot of restaurants that serve German food and therefore you have less German wines on the menu. But having said that, you know, I think, I think Germany isn’t a very good position because Germany really does make quality products in the eyes of Chinese, right? So that’s the first thing. It makes quality products and therefore they’re more able to to, you know, select that. Whereas you think of other smaller regions, even in the same, and not to say anything wrong, obviously I love Austrian, not Australia, Austrian, if you put that in the market. That’s a very hard sell. But Germany still has that hat when it comes to Riesling. More people learn about wine here. The more people do WSET classes, which is wine classes from the UK, they need to learn that Germany makes the best Riesling or Riesling comes from Germany, you know? And because of that, you know, when you think of most people love, I don’t know, many people that don’t like Riesling, then they’re open minded and they want to drink it. So that’s at least quite simple. You know. And in China it’s very hard, to find a German Pinot noir, it’s very hard to find, uh, you know, a Pinot Gris from Germany, like a Weißburgunder. You can find things like this, but it’s so hard and actually know what it’s a good thing because when a consumer sees, okay, Germany, white wine, they just expect it to be Riesling and it’s so simple, you know, they don’t have to think like France, you know, they get confused. So it’s very straight forward. But at the same time, it’s how do we make this category more relatable? So people know Germany, they know Riesling, but then they see words like the „GGs“ and then they have all these different words and then you have the different regions and then a different sweetness types. That’s where got a little bit confused. Um, but overall I would say the quality of German wines are quite high. So there’s a good already a good foundation and it just takes time for customers to open up to new styles of wine and to go through the Bordeaux phase and the burgundy phase than the Australian phase. And then, you know, and learn from there and explore from there.

Sabrina: That sounds good. And a very positive outlook for the German community. I have one last question for you which is related to a quote? Napoleon once said „let China sleep when she awakes, she will shake the world“. And I was thinking about this quote and about wines. So should we now fear that China due to its large population will drink up all the wines and leave us with empty barrels here in Europe. Or do you think to China will produce its own price-winning wines and consumption will not affect that much what we have here.

Emilie: It’s hard to judge, but I certainly do feel that there’s no way that we’re going to drink up everything from every country. You know, that’s, that’s impossible. That’s for sure. Yes, I agree. China is, quality is certainly becoming more, you know, better and better. And once people will, you know, it’s own population already drinks Chinese wines. Right. So, and you know, you just said that Changyu wine, the Great Wall wine, their wines are already in the market, so it’s, you know, people grew up drinking that wine. Their parents grew up drinking that wine to transition from Chinese wine to a better quality Chinese wine won’t be that difficult. The only thing is can they be convinced that it’s as good as, as imported. That’s another thing. Is it as safe as it, as real, as imported. There’s always a future. And you know, I think one of the key stats in, um, in Europe is that one consumption is going down right in Europe per capita. And then you had the idea that millennials in US are now becoming more health conscious, right? And therefore looking at and going, well, people are drinking slightly less than before and everybody’s kind of drinking more premium or, or some countries are doubling down. So, you know, China, if this is an area where people are starting to drink, then that’s great because other regions of the world still have to sell their product, right? So if people are drinking less and we need somewhere else to put the wine in China right now is a very small drop of water in a sense of how many, you know, uh, liters per person they’re consuming. Japan is still the leader in Asia for the amount of consumption per person. So in a sense for, for us, there’s a long way to go before this happens. And I would say if people double the drinking in, in France isn’t it a great thing. If people double the consumption that they want to get in Australia, that’s a great thing because there’s, in the wine industry, there’s always, there’s a lot of wine out there, and they need to sell, right? Cause wine doesn’t last forever. You can’t hold on to it and with every vintage, there’s a little bit more wine that comes and you know, hopefully it’s great for producers. If people can sell out in China, they could probably raise their prices right. And people now need places to put their wine. They want to have, you know, and they will be able to strategize as this happens. But I don’t see China in five years taking over the world and no one is allowed you to take wine back home.

Sabrina: That sounds like a really great outlook. I think we can go with this. So thank you so much for participating.

Emilie: Yeah, I mean it’s such a great thing and I think maybe, I’m sure people in Europe thought of that. You know, when you think about the, um, about US, they thought, oh my god the US is going to buy all the wines, but US is very big on her own production, right. A lot of wine is produced in California and Oregon and Washington and in California, they drink a lot of their own product. So what’s going to happen to China and I’m pretty sure it could happen in the same way that yes, wine increases, but also their own domestic production increases as well.

Sabrina: Okay, cool. Thank you so much for participating in this podcast and sharing all those insights.

Emilie: All right. Thank you so much.

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